Subject: [Ietf-languages] Fwd: failure notice

From: Sebastian Drude <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 20:52:12 -0300

Apparently Doug's email inbox is full; if someone has an alternative 
email address, could you please warn him?  Best, Sebastian

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Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] Variant subtag for Gallo
To: John Cowan <[email-masked]>, Doug Ewell <[email-masked]>
Cc: Rembert Eufe <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked], [email-masked],
Registrar ISO639-3 <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
<[email-masked]>
<[email-masked]>
<CAD2gp_Rwe_RFK-PgdyMOYKTU-=C=[email-masked]>
From: Sebastian Drude <[email-masked]>
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Dear all, John,

Two points with reference to Glottolog and Gallo:

*1: significance of a Glottolog entry:*

/But since Glottolog registers anything from fully recognized
languages, to dialects, to language families,/

This is true, but *the different status of these entities is clearly 
visible in Glottolog*.Â  A full language (1) is COUNTED (it appears in 
the language counts for language (sub)families) and (2) receives a 
coloured SYMBOL in the tree and on the map, different from dialects and 
other varieties.

/to things that have just been mentioned somewhere in literature/

This is *NOT* true -- the editors of Glottolog are very careful before 
they accept the evidence for the existence of an alledged language.Â  
Such spurious "languages" for which there is no clear evidence, they 
create entries which are flagged as "*Unattested*". They are not listed 
in the regular language family trees, byt have a listing of their own: 
https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/unat1236

Similarly, there are also some /bookkeeping/ entries.Â  This is all 
explained here: https://glottolog.org/glottolog/glottologinformation

/â€” without performing any additional research, as we and ISO 639 do /â€”

This is *NOT* true and a very strange thing to assert (based on 
what?).Â  In my experience, the Glottolog editors, very much to the 
contrary, are very careful about their decision about what to count as a 
language, and about their internal classification, and they always 
document the basis for their decisions, indicating the reference to the 
work which they believe is the most well informed.Â  (For French, this 
work is Agard, Frederick B. 1984 
<https://glottolog.org/resource/reference/id/301288>: 83-90.)Â  They 
keep up with new work and change their representations accordingly.Â  
They are open to debate and are grateful for references that state other 
opinions.

/the existence of a Glottocode for Gallo is certainly not
"sufficient" by itself to cause the request to be accepted./

Although it might not be *sufficient*, I do believe that we should take 
Glottolog seriously and that, when postulating a different decision than 
that from the Glottolog editors, we need to justify that very well.

*
*

*2: Status of Gallo in Glottolog*

Strangely, Gallo is represented somewhat ambiguously in Glottolog, and 
this is the first time in many years of using Glottolog that I see this 
kind of inconsistency.Â  On the one hand, French only appears as one 
language (one of two in the small branch "global french", with Nouchi), 
but on the other hand, Gallo, as /Normand/ and /Poitevin/ (within the 
"languages-d'Oil"-dialectal-cluster of French), and alongside 
/Dgernesiais/ and /Jerriais/, has a coloured symbol on the language maps.

I will verify with the editors of Glottolog how this discrepancy is to 
be interpreted.Â  As I said, this is the first time I see a discrepancy 
between the languages count and the symbols on the map.

Best greetings,

Sebastian

-- 
Museu P.E. Goeldi, CCH, Linguistica â–ª Av. Perimetral, 1901
Terra Firme, CEP: 66077-530 â–ª BelÃ©m do ParÃ¡ â€“ PA â–ª Brazil
[email-masked] â–ª +55 (91) 3217 6024 â–ª +55 (91) 983733319
Priv: Tv. Juvenal Cordeiro, 184, Apt 104 â–ª 66070-300 BelÃ©m

On 04/06/2021 17:36, John Cowan wrote:

> References in the English WP page: 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo_language#References>.
>
> References (lots of them) in the French WP page:Â 
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo#R%C3%A9f%C3%A9rences>.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2021 at 2:16 PM Doug Ewell <[email-masked] 
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>
> Removing ISO 639-3 from this thread since it's now out of their hands.
>
> Rembert Eufe wrote:
>
> > just another question on my subject: Would the fact that glottolog
> > registers gallo under the following link be sufficient as a
> reference:
> > https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/gall1275 ?
>
> Speaking only for myself, not for the Reviewer (Michael Everson)
> who makes these decisions...
>
> The Glottolog reference may be of some interest, because it links
> to Glottolog's tree structure and that may facilitate discussion.
>
> But since Glottolog registers anything from fully recognized
> languages, to dialects, to language families, to things that have
> just been mentioned somewhere in literature â€” without performing
> any additional research, as we and ISO 639 do â€” the existence of a
> Glottocode for Gallo is certainly not "sufficient" by itself to
> cause the request to be accepted.
>
> Instead, you should try to include references that describe the
> Gallo variety in some detail. The Wikipedia article you cited
> below has 24 references; you might start there and pick the ones
> that you feel provide a useful description.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
> <http://ewellic.org>
>
>
> >>> we currently work on a French corpus in which some sequences in
> >>> Gallo appear. Gallo is the Romance vernacular of Eastern Brittany
> >>> (opposed to Breton in its Western part):
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo_language .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

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<p>Dear all, John,<br>
</p>
<p><br>
Two points with reference to Glottolog and Gallo:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><b>1: significance of a Glottolog entry:</b><br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>But since Glottolog registers anything from fully recognized
languages, to dialects, to language families,</i><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is true, but <b>the different status of these entities is
clearly visible in Glottolog</b>.Â  A full language (1) is
COUNTED (it appears in the language counts for language
(sub)families) and (2) receives a coloured SYMBOL in the tree and
on the map, different from dialects and other varieties.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i>to things that have just been mentioned somewhere in
literature</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is <b>NOT</b> true -- the editor

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