Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] Variant subtag for Gallo

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 00:05:08 -0600

I apologize for misrepresenting the organization and vetting processes of Glottolog. My comments were based on inadequate perusal of the site's page that explains the organization and processes — frankly, I had never found it — and on possible misunderstanding of comments expressed in personal email by two of the site's editors, Hammarström and Forkel.

I will say that for a site which places such heavy emphasis on visual presentation, I have trouble using the site's tree widgets for deeply nested entries, such as for Gallo, as well as keeping track of what colors mean what. Of course this has nothing to do with how accurate or authoritative the data on the site may be.

Perhaps interestingly, as Sebastian pointed out, Glottolog lists Gallo as a dialect of a dialect (French → Langues d'Oil → Gallo). So if we wish to consider the status of Gallo within Glottolog when evaluating the BCP 47 proposal, this makes a stronger case for registering a variant subtag, rather than a primary language subtag as I mentioned — this despite the frequent use of the phrase "Gallo language" in many references.

--
Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org

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From: Hugh Paterson III <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 12:39:05 +0200

Doug,
No offense was taken here on matters of the Glottolog. However, with
regards to authority of sources, this community has often referenced
Wikipedia as an authoritative source. Wikipedia (the English article for
Gallo) seems to clearly indicate that it is a language, and that it has had
regional government support (at least in the past).

If it is true that the difference between a language and a dialect is that
a language has an army and a navy while a dialect does not, then perhaps
Gallo was a language in the middle ages (when it had an army) and now is
no-longer a language (since the army of France is the standing army there).
After all Pluto used to be a planet and is no-longer a planet...
(presumably Wikipedia supported/s both positions on Pluto's planethood).

It is my understanding that glottolog does not try to model the demotion of
languages into dialects, which seems to happen more frequently than may be
obvious given the various changes in political climates around the world.

all the best,
- Hugh

On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:05 AM Doug Ewell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I apologize for misrepresenting the organization and vetting processes of
> Glottolog. My comments were based on inadequate perusal of the site's page
> that explains the organization and processes — frankly, I had never found
> it — and on possible misunderstanding of comments expressed in personal
> email by two of the site's editors, Hammarström and Forkel.
>
> I will say that for a site which places such heavy emphasis on visual
> presentation, I have trouble using the site's tree widgets for deeply
> nested entries, such as for Gallo, as well as keeping track of what colors
> mean what. Of course this has nothing to do with how accurate or
> authoritative the data on the site may be.
>
> Perhaps interestingly, as Sebastian pointed out, Glottolog lists Gallo as
> a dialect of a dialect (French → Langues d'Oil → Gallo). So if we wish to
> consider the status of Gallo within Glottolog when evaluating the BCP 47
> proposal, this makes a stronger case for registering a variant subtag,
> rather than a primary language subtag as I mentioned — this despite the
> frequent use of the phrase "Gallo language" in many references.
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>

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From: Sebastian Drude <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 10:50:04 -0300

Dear all, Doug,

thanks for this reply.  (I do not quite understand why Doug would 
apologize, as it was John who made the statements about Glottolog that I 
contested.  But anyways.)

    [...] I have trouble using the site's tree widgets for deeply nested entries, such as for Gallo, ...

The nestedness of the trees merely reflects the scholarly conceptions 
(best available hypotheses) of empirical facts -- in some cases, the 
tree can become very nested indeed (try 
https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/bang1353).

    ... as well as keeping track of what colors mean what.

The colours and shapes do not have any intrinsic meanings;  they are 
just there to differenciate different entities ("languoids", i.e. 
families, languages, and varieties) one from another and to identify 
them on the maps.

Best,

Sebastian

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