Subject: PKINIT "Design Team" update...

From: "Eric Rosenfeld" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:02:14 -0600

A conference call was held on Aug 18.  The call was attended by folks
interested in progressing PKINIT (Sam Hartman, Jeff Altman, Sasha
Mevinsky, Todd Stecher, Doc Evans, Brian Tung, Paul Leach).  In the
interest of ensuring that the entire WG is aware of the basic issues
discussed on the call and the direction of PKINIT, we wanted to send out
a summary.  The following list describes items that were discussed on
the call, and were either addressed or identified as open issues.

- Things to be removed from draft (or ensure they are not in most recent
draft)
	- Use of raw public keys.  Only digital certificates will be
supported.
	- Name transformation.  Policy or subjectAltName extension will
determine how to map names.

- Open issues:
	- Security of cached DH values & use of nonce
	- Confirm alignment with K Crypto, CMS, and Clarifications
	- Internationalization
	- Refactoring (pending review of Brian's re-organization)
	- Update PA Types to distinguish PKINIT requests

Brian Tung, the principal editor, is working on an updated draft and
should have it ready by Sept 8, one week before the Interim meeting.

Regards,
Eric

Eric S. Rosenfeld
Project Director, PacketCable Security
CableLabs
400 Centennial Parkway
Louisville, CO  80027-1266

Email: [email-masked]
Phone: 303-661-3841
Fax: 303-661-9199

---

From: Love <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:23:39 +0200

Meeting reports from 55th Altanta[1], and 54th Yokohama[2] are missing on the
IETF web site, are they available somewhere else ?

I've not looked though the mailinglist archives yet.

Love

[1] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02nov/194.htm
[2] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02jul/199.htm

---

From: "Douglas E. Engert" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:05:40 -0500

> I've not looked though the mailinglist archives yet.

The minutes from both of these meeting where submitted. Following are the 
original submissions to [email-masked]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: KRB-WG 54th IETF Meeting Minutes
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:47:37 -0500
From: "Douglas E. Engert" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], Jeffrey Schiller <[email-masked]>,Steve Bellovin <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked]

Minutes of the Kerberos Working Group
54th IETF Meeting
Yokohama Japan
Tuesday 16 July, 2002
13:45-14:45.

   The Kerberos working group met briefly to discuss progress on
   Kerberos clarifications and other internet drafts.  Most attendees
   were new to the working group and few of those writing the documents
   under consideration were able to attend.  The status of Kerberos
   several Internet drafts were discussed.

   (I would like to thank Cliff Neuman, for chairing the meeting 
    and producing the minutes, as I was not able to attend. - D. Engert) 

Kerberos Clarifications - Status Reported by Clifford Neuman

   Section 5 revisions to Kerberos clarifications have appeared.  Other
   changes to clarifications are being integrated this week and a new
   internet draft will be submitted in the week following the IETF.
   Several of the remaining "assignments" were completed since the
   working group meeting, and we are very close to closure.  We will
   likely hold an interim meeting between now and the Atlanta IETF to
   resolve any remaining issues on clarifications and continue
   progress on the Kerberos extensions document.  The date and venue of
   such an interim meeting will be discussed and announced to the
   working group mailing list.

   For the benefit of the attendees that had not been present at
   previous Kerberos working group meetings, Clifford Neuman presented a
   summary of the discussion at the interim meeting in February and the
   subsequent meeting in Minneapolis regarding the splitting of the
   internet draft into clarification and extensions, and the plans for
   moving forward.

Kerberos Extensions

   There was no discussion of Kerberos extensions issues during the
   working group meeting.  It is expected that progress will be made on
   extensions at any interim meeting, once the clarifications issues
   are settled.

Internationalization

   Jeff Altman said a few words about the Stringprep Profile for Kerberos
   to allow for Internationalization.  A new version of the Stringprep
   draft was released on June 24th, but there was not time to submit an
   update to the Kerberos profile to make the deadline.  This will be
   taken care of in the next few weeks.

PK-INIT - Status Reported by Clifford Neuman

   A new draft of PK-INIT was submitted by Brian Tung before the meeting
   but missed the deadline.  A copy was sent to the mailing list and it
   will officially appear once the meeting concludes.  Only minor changes
   were made, and progress of this draft is gated on Kerberos 
clarifications.

Kerberos DNS

   At the editing session we agreed to update and re-issue the Kerberos
   DNS Locate draft.  The draft was updated to make the Security
   Considerations clearer; as well as to add the ability to perform
   lookups to an as yet unimplemented KDC over TLS connection.

Single Use Authentication

   Ken Hornstein mentioned that he was about to dust off the old draft
   on single use authentication and resubmit it for discussion.

The attendees were asked for any questions or any open issues that
they felt needed to be discussed and nothing was brought up.

The meeting was adjourned.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: KRB-WG IETF-55 meeting minutes
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:48:11 -0600
From: "Douglas E. Engert" <[email-masked]>
To: Kerberos WG <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]

The Kerberos  WG (krb-wg)  meet at 55th IETF, 11/19/02

[13:00] Doug Engert opened the meeting with a review of the agenda. There
where about 60 people attending.

Larry Greenfield <[email-masked]> volunteered to take note. 

[13:10] Cliff Neuman, Kerberos Clarifications

Today is the last day of the WG last call for Kerberos clarifications,
draft-ietf-krb-wg-kerberos-clarifications-02.txt. There were many
comments; http://www.kerberos.isi.edu/people/bcn/krb-revisions/ have
the latest issues and the editor's classification of them.

Sam Hartman is bringing up concerns about authorization data SHOULD 
versus MUSTs. There is consensus that "all authorization data" MUST be 
rejected if not understood and encapsulating elements must be 
be implemented." 

It's decided that there has to be another WG last call once
a new draft reflecting issues has been issued.

[13:18] Ken Raeburn, Encryption and Checksum Specifications for Kerberos 5
draft-ietf-krb-wg-crypto-02.txt
draft-raeburn-krb-rijndael-krb-02.txt

Ken and others believe that clarifications, encryption, and the AES documents
will all have to move simultaneously.

There needs to be another encryption draft because of DES
specification problems. The latest version of the AES document dropped
twofish and 192-bit AES.

One issue is whether there needs to be a new function in the crypto
profile for generating random data to feed into algorithms for
combining keys.

[13:25] Matt Hur, PKINIT
draft-ietf-cat-kerberos-pk-init-16.txt

There have been very few changes in the past few revisions. The goal
is to last call this document shortly after clarifications.

Tom Yu brings up that RFC 2253 transformation from cert to principal
isn't unique. Kurt Zelinga, Tom Yu, Leif Johansson, Bob Morgan, Larry
Greenfield, Jeff Altman, participate in a discussion. General
consensus that the certificate to principal mapping is a site policy
issue but some guidance might be helpful. There was some amount of
confusion when PKTAPP was brought up, since then services (and not
just KDCs) will be making the mapping.

Agreement to discuss the mapping problem on the list and there will be
another version of the draft.

[13:46] Sam Hartman, Kerberos set/change password
draft-ietf-cat-kerberos-set-passwd-06.txt

Issue #1: This specification implicitly changes the Kerberos protocol
by making restrictions on what addresses are passed to krb_mk_priv().

Issue #2: The draft currently specifies UTF-8; it would be nice to
have something that works now and continues to work after extensions
makes Kerberos Unicode friendly. This brings up non-unicode
characters, stringprep, and where to normalize.

Sam recommends sending unnormalized UTF-8 to the server with a
recommendation to confine to US-ASCII if you want to interoperate now.

Issue #3: Sam would like to force some principals to only have random
keys. There's a concern from the crowd that the KDC is currently a
free source of entropy. Leif thinks that a fix to this draft may
help sync ldap change password extend operations with set-change password. 
There was also discussions about aligning krb password policy
with ldap password policy schema as part of the schema work...

The chair sees consensus that set/change password should be withdrawn
from the IESG, fixed, and resubmitted.

[14:00] End of first session, 15 minute break.

[14:15] Cliff Neuman, Kerberos Extensions
<no current draft>

Cliff summarizes where extensions came from and what the goals
are. Jeff Altman contributes that the i18n extensions mostly revolve
around normalization. Many of the things listed for extensions (client
canonicalization, updating MUSTs versus SHOULDs) have actually been
done or partially done in clarifications.

Tom Yu brings up the edata outstanding issues, including authenticated
cleartext and typed data inside of edata. Sam Hartman relays that
previous consensus in Feb was that the typed data wasn't the general
solution. Sam also brings up problems with name space constraints that
are mentioned in clarifications and should be addressed in extensions
(cross-realm cache poisoning).

Cliff talks about what will be enabled by extensions and emphasized
backwards compatibility. Matt Hur queries if this will still be
Kerberos v5 or if the protocol number should change. An impassioned
discussion follows where many people say "who cares what the protocol
number is".

[14:42] Glen Zorn, IAKERB
draft-ietf-cat-iakerb-08.txt

Glen talks about the current state of the draft (in the hands of the
IESG) and, upon querying by the chair, says that he's not familiar
with Martin Rex's objections. Glen thought Symbol might have done an
implementation of IAKERB, but the crowd disagrees.

Jeff Hutzelman relays some of Martin Rex's concerns, like "SPNEGO in
this protocol has no value" and "under specified for a GSS mechanism"
so "no two implementations will interoperate". The document editor,
Jonathan Trostle, thought that he had addressed Martin's comments.

The chair notes that the WG is still waiting on Jeff Schiller's comments.

There is consensus that IAKERB is seriously flawed if it can't deal
with multiple round trips and various preauth mechanisms. Glen Zorn
dissents.

The WG discusses moving the document to experimental instead of
standards-track. The chair asks if the WG should withdraw this
document; the room is split 50-50 with no consensus. The chair notes
that those in favor for withdrawal, are mostly core developers, those
in favor of not withdrawal are vendors who might still find it useful.

[14:50] Derek Atkins, Krb5-EAP

Derek presents an alternative to IAKERB and believes he will have a
draft out in mid-December. His approach uses EAP to tunnel "random"
Kerberos messages.

[14:55] Ken Hornstein, initial authentication
draft-ietf-krb-wg-hw-auth-02.txt
draft-ietf-krb-wg-kerberos-sam-01.txt

Ken discusses protecting the initial authentication using the local
host key and how it interacts with hardware preauth. One problem with
kerbeors-sam-01 is that it is insecure when used with RC4.

[15:00] Donna Skibbie, Kerberos LDAP schema
draft-skibbie-krb-kdc-ldap-schema-01.txt

There is general interest that this is good work; a fairly large group
has indicated specific interest. Leif asks why the information model
was removed from the base Kerberos spec (clarifications). Ken Raeburn
replies that it was overly MIT specific, and there's general consensus
that a general information model would be a good thing.

Donna asks people to contact her if you want to be added to the
Kerberos-ldap-schema-list. Leif pointed out: There was also discussions 
about aligning krb password policy with ldap password policy schema.

[15:08] done, 8 minutes overtime.

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-- 

 Douglas E. Engert  <[email-masked]>
 Argonne National Laboratory
 9700 South Cass Avenue
 Argonne, Illinois  60439 
 (630) 252-5444