Subject: Analog lines supported as a PWE

From: Joe Garbus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:36:17 -0500

Hello,

I have customers who have dedicated always-on analog private lines that
connect business/trading partners together and could greatly benefit from a
PWE service.  I see that the spec below
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-riegel-pwe3-tdm-requirements-01.tx
t
mentions support down to the down to the DS0 level and did not find mention
of analog support.

A device, like a router, would need to accept 2 or 4 wire analog
connections, encode them in PCM and then place this into an IP packet that
supports the PWE service.

Is this under discussion as well or would this be left to a vendor  to
provide the analog front end, then create the function in their device to
have this run over a  PWE service?
Thanks,

Joe

Joe Garbus
Kensico Consulting
[email-masked]
Office -   914-769-6848
Mobile -  914-907-9216
http://www.kensicoconsulting.com

---

From: "Jiang Zhu" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:17:16 -0800

Hi, Joe,
Can this be supported by the old world RFC2217 "com-port" service?
-Jiang

---

From: Joe Garbus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:40:29 -0500

Jiang,

I took a look at RFC2217 and this is for RS232 ports.  These analog private
wires are actual lines  with telephones at each end and don't act as a com
ports.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Jiang Zhu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 7:17 PM
To: Joe Garbus; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

Hi, Joe,

---

From: "Jiang Zhu" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:00:26 -0800

Sorry for the noise. I missed the PCM part of your email.
However, is this similar to the "voice gateway" service?
for example, the router has several VIC(Voice Interface Card) and the analog
calls are sampled, encoded using G.7xx and transported to the other end
using VoIP/VoATM or VoFR.
Why we need an old service under new name "PWE"?
-Jiang
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Garbus" <[email-masked]>
To: "Jiang Zhu" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

> > connect business/trading partners together and could greatly benefit
from
> a
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

---

From: Joe Garbus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:52:52 -0500

Jiang,
This is not a voice gateway service, where you are replacing the PSTN with a
VoIP service.

There is no dialing involved today with these analog circuits,  just
straight point-to-point connections that are very costly since they are
always up. These analog circuits can just be encapsulated over IP using PCM
in the manner that you describe.  Since there is no VoATM or VoFR today,
there is no need to introduce this.

Vendors would need to provide the same VIC interfaces in an edge router as
well.  Some large customers may have hundreds of these lines that will need
to span multiple devices. They will also need encrypt the voice since these
will be going over a common backbone and not add much latency.  This is also
available at the DSO level as well where you would connect a T1 into a PWE
where each DS0 is another private wire between two customers.

Even though it is still fundamentally VoIP, you are still emulating Analog
Private Wires and in this case need to pass the analog signaling through to
the other side just like you would T1/E1/Sonet Signaling. So the routers
with VIC cards would need to support PWE with these analog interfaces.

Joe

Joe Garbus
Kensico Consulting

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Garbus" <[email-masked]>
To: "Jiang Zhu" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

from

---

From: "White, Craig (Level 3)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:18:33 -0700

Very intriguing application. How exactly are these 100's of lines interconnected? are these simply connected point to point (1 phone to 1 phone, no dialing) ? or to a conference bridge? Or is it a party-line? 

The analog portion of this service is whats actually intriguing... What are the distance limits of the "wires". Do you have any pointers to tariffs for this service?

I have heard of burglar alarm companies having these types of "wires" but they are for relay alarm contacts not traditional "communications". I've also heard of used car parts companies having a "hoot and holler" line but I figured those had been migrated. Are you limited in what you can plug into theses "wires"? Could you replace the telephone with say some "modem eliminators"?

I am assuming that you are talking about transmitting only the "human speech"? Many times, you can't change to new technology, even if it costs less because what you have was "expensive", or you may have so many of them that the cost to cut over in toto is too great. 

In this case, if the lines are so expensive, and the end device is simply a telephone, why haven't they converted to some other less expensive technology already?

Was the issue privacy? Why not a frame relay network with voip? Been available for years... simple as dirt... well almost, 2 wire service has to be more simple :)... 

Maybe the issue was reliability? Or should I say the risk of "un-reliability"? 

My opinion is that it will be very hard for us to come up with a pseudo wire encapsulation for "a pair of analog wires". Now, if the quantity of units is enough, there are several folks here that could accommodate you, but, please take it off the list... 

I think somewhere there was an assumption made that the "wires" that PWE3 would emulate, actually had some type of predefined pattern that could be extracted after the physical "sampling" was done.  Very early on, the only "payload" that was accepted was IP, but here I feel that we are bordering on that joke of "Power over MPLS".

-craig     

> From:	Joe Garbus [SMTP:[email-masked]]
> Sent:	Sunday, December 22, 2002 6:53 PM
> To:	Jiang Zhu; [email-masked]
> > > Hello,>

---

From: Joe Garbus <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:38:26 -0500

I put my comments in below with some more detail about where this fits in
and who would use it. Hope this helps

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: White, Craig (Level 3) [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 1:19 PM
To: Joe Garbus; Jiang Zhu; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

Very intriguing application. How exactly are these 100's of lines
interconnected? are these simply connected point to point (1 phone to 1
phone, no dialing) ? or to a conference bridge? Or is it a party-line?

>These are used in financial trading applications and are analog and
digital.  They are point-to-point connections that
 >telcos provide. They can be conferenced in as well.

The analog portion of this service is whats actually intriguing... What are
the distance limits of the "wires". Do you have any pointers to tariffs for
this service?

> I'll have to look for a tariff, but telcos provide this already over the
PSTN.

I have heard of burglar alarm companies having these types of "wires" but
they are for relay alarm contacts not traditional "communications". I've
also heard of used car parts companies having a "hoot and holler" line but I
figured those had been migrated. Are you limited in what you can plug into
theses "wires"? Could you replace the telephone with say some "modem
eliminators"?

> Actually hoot and holler is a voice trading application as well  that
could benefit from PWE

I am assuming that you are talking about transmitting only the "human
speech"? Many times, you can't change to new technology, even if it costs
less because what you have was "expensive", or you may have so many of them
that the cost to cut over in toto is too great.

>Its only used for voice today.

In this case, if the lines are so expensive, and the end device is simply a
telephone, why haven't they converted to some other less expensive
technology already?

>  Its all part of a larger system that traders use.

Was the issue privacy? Why not a frame relay network with voip? Been
available for years... simple as dirt... well almost, 2 wire service has to
be more simple :)...

> The financial industry is looking at VoIP, but not ready to put it on a
trading floor.

Maybe the issue was reliability? Or should I say the risk of
"un-reliability"?

> Yes, VoIP was not viewed as reliable in a trading environment

My opinion is that it will be very hard for us to come up with a pseudo wire
encapsulation for "a pair of analog wires". Now, if the quantity of units is
enough, there are several folks here that could accommodate you, but, please
take it off the list...

> I don't think you need to a new encapsulation. Just a CPE router that will
accept 2 or 4 wire connections,do an A to D
> conversion at 64kPCM, or better yet, use ADPCM or G.729 compression and
then put into an IP packet that uses a PWE T1
> service at the DS0 level, (sorry if I don't have all the lingo down, but
you get the idea) pass the IP packet to the end
> router and then do the D-A back to the other line.

I think somewhere there was an assumption made that the "wires" that PWE3
would emulate, actually had some type of predefined pattern that could be
extracted after the physical "sampling" was done.  Very early on, the only
"payload" that was accepted was IP, but here I feel that we are bordering on
that joke of "Power over MPLS".

-craig

---

From: "tom k. johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 14:06:00 -0500

Joe - 

Since there's already well defined methods for mapping Analog circuits onto DS0s, I would think that what you're looking for could be accomplished using the appropriate NSP in conjunction with whatever the WG ultimately comes up with for carrying NxDS0 circuits (w/ or w/o CAS) over PSNs.  

So, perhaps no special language is necessary to address your application (?)

-Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Garbus [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 6:36 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

Hello,
 
I have customers who have dedicated always-on analog private lines that connect business/trading partners together and could greatly benefit from a PWE service.  I see that the spec below

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-riegel-pwe3-tdm-requirements-01.txt
mentions support down to the down to the DS0 level and did not find mention of analog support. 
 
A device, like a router, would need to accept 2 or 4 wire analog connections, encode them in PCM and then place this into an IP packet that supports the PWE service.  
 
Is this under discussion as well or would this be left to a vendor  to provide the analog front end, then create the function in their device to have this run over a  PWE service? 

Thanks,

Joe

Joe Garbus 
Kensico Consulting 
[email-masked] 
Office -   914-769-6848 
Mobile -  914-907-9216 
http://www.kensicoconsulting.com <http://www.kensicoconsulting.com/>

---

From: Joe Garbus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:14:07 -0500

Tom,

The circuits that I am looking to emulate are called Automatic Ring Down
circuits (ARDs) that I believe has different signaling than that of  a
standard analog phone.

Here is a link that describes one in more detail  ( I am not getting any
kickbacks from anyone! :)
 http://www.american-telesis.net/aganauto.htm

I probably don't need CAS signaling, but would need some way to pass this
signaling across to an analog connection on the other side.

There are also digital versions of ARD lines, where an ARD = DSO , so I
think I could just use whatever the WG comes up with to map DS0s across like
you suggested

Wall Street firms use these ARD lines, so if a device could emulate
multiple ARDs, this could be a driver for this kind of PWE service.

I am in the process of doing some market research to find out how many of
these analog lines are deployed and would have a better handle if there is a
business case for it.

Joe

 -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of tom k.
johnson
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 2:06 PM
To: Joe Garbus; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

  Joe -

  Since there's already well defined methods for mapping Analog circuits
onto DS0s, I would think that what you're looking for could be accomplished
using the appropriate NSP in conjunction with whatever the WG ultimately
comes up with for carrying NxDS0 circuits (w/ or w/o CAS) over PSNs.

  So, perhaps no special language is necessary to address your application
(?)

  -Tom

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Joe Garbus [mailto:[email-masked]]
    Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 6:36 PM
    To: [email-masked]
    Subject: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

    Hello,

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-riegel-pwe3-tdm-requirements-01.tx
t
    mentions support down to the down to the DS0 level and did not find
mention of analog support.

    Joe

    Joe Garbus
    Kensico Consulting

---

From: "Yaakov Stein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:23:50 +0200

OK, now we finally know what you are talking about.
 
ARD is a regular DS0 service from the transport point of view,
but it is configured with a pre-programmed destination telephone number.
 
Whenever the phone goes off-hook (as is indicated by the CAS signaling),
the pre-configured telephone number is automatically "dialled".
 
Since in PWE3 we concentrate on transport and
consider "forwarding" as a separate function,
this "new case" is exactly the same as our regular TDM application.
 
Y(J)S

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Garbus [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:14 AM
To: tom k. johnson; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

Tom,
 
The circuits that I am looking to emulate are called Automatic Ring Down circuits (ARDs) that I believe has different signaling than that of  a standard analog phone. 
 
Here is a link that describes one in more detail  ( I am not getting any kickbacks from anyone! :)
  http://www.american-telesis.net/aganauto.htm
 
I probably don't need CAS signaling, but would need some way to pass this signaling across to an analog connection on the other side.
 
There are also digital versions of ARD lines, where an ARD = DSO , so I think I could just use whatever the WG comes up with to map DS0s across like you suggested
 
Wall Street firms use these ARD lines, so if a device could emulate  multiple ARDs, this could be a driver for this kind of PWE service. 
 
I am in the process of doing some market research to find out how many of these analog lines are deployed and would have a better handle if there is a business case for it.  
 
Joe

 -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of tom k. johnson
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 2:06 PM
To: Joe Garbus; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

Joe - 

-Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Garbus [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 6:36 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [PWE3] Analog lines supported as a PWE

Hello,

 

Thanks,

Joe

Joe Garbus 
Kensico Consulting